A swim in the RvR lakes

I’ve really enjoyed all the keep takes that I’ve either led or hopped into. Open world RvR has a different and less predictable rhythm to it than running end to end scenarios, questing, or putting groups together for Public Quests. Although you usually start a world RvR warband with a vague mission (ie. ‘lets’ take back the High Elf keeps’ or ‘Who wants to come to Bugman’s Brewery?’) you also know that you’ll be sending out scouts and trying to respond to any enemy action as well. Some nights you win, some nights you lose. If it was predictable, it wouldn’t be as grand in scope.

Our server, like many others, has adopted the habit of using an Order channel (so you sign up to it when you log on) to help arrange PUG raids and report any scouting information. It’s not only useful but pretty much compulsary to pull off this kind of organisation. I’m hoping that the new channels that Mythic are providing with the latest patch will help too but I know we’ll stick to our Order channel because everyone knows it, and it works.

So I’ve been leading a scheduled weekly raid — scheduled on the guild calendar at any rate — and also sometimes hopping into PUG raids, sometimes I end up leading them but often it’s just a chance to get some more keep practice, get to know the RvR monkeys in the realm, and kick Destruction out of our keeps. I would say they run with moderately good frequency, I’m not really seeing the lack of open world RvR that I’ve heard people complain about.

I have noticed that our raids are getting a little more sophisticated tactics-wise. We’re getting better at covering the postern door and sending groups out to harass Destruction players on their way to defend. People don’t need to be told to target the oil. We never run out of rams. Or in other words, the realm is learning how to RvR. Sure, this doesn’t apply to the hardcore but just talking about the regular PUG players here.

Now really, keep takes in Tier 2 and 3 are something we do for fun and practice and socialising and to help train the realm in siege warfare. We have the possibility to dominate areas but they don’t contribute (as far as I know) to the city siege mechanic. So we aren’t as motivated to stay and defend keeps as we are to take them, if we’re running with a large group. This is because when you take a keep you get lots of renown (and soon, lots of xp too) and the chance to roll on some decent loot. The only case where this isn’t true is when we know a keep is under attack, or guess correctly that it soon will be, so there will be plenty of enemies to fight.

It isn’t entirely about scoring points and loot. Sitting in an empty keep is dull compared to running around and fighting stuff, even just NPCs at objectives. I don’t think this needs to be changed, there has to come a point where you RvR because you want your side to win rather than purely for points scoring and there’s no way to reward people for preparing a defence that won’t unduly avoid the afk crowd. We’ll see this come up more in Tier 4 where defence is more important because the keeps actually count.

I enjoy RvR raid leading very much. I’d encourage anyone who is intrigued to give it a go. All you really need to do is announce on the channel of your choice ‘Anyone want to join me for taking keep X’ and if it’s like my server, the people will come pouring in. Then you say something like, ‘OK everyone, meet at warcamp Y.’ Then when they get there, issue a pre-battle pep talk such as ‘OK, lets’ go.’ And watch as your warband zooms off and does it all without you. It really can be that straightforwards. You can leave the warband open if you don’t want to be fussed with invites (the main reason not to do this is so that you can boot anyone who is being a dick – hopefully it won’t come up often). People in the warband will usually offer advice and suggestions so even if you aren’t sure what to do, just pick one and repeat it.

But that’s not the fun part. The fun is when you start chatting to other warbands and getting reports in from other zones about where the enemy are, and then you get to pick your next objective with a view to getting fun fights for your warband which will play to your advantage. It is always ALWAYS rewarding when you pick the right option and your guys get to charge and slaughter the enemy while they’re busy on a keep door. It is always rewarding when you can sneak your guys through a postern door and hold onto a keep even when you are outnumbered. I love the tactical side to world RvR. And that means I love the unpredictability.

These are the exciting encounters that people remember.

Now, Tobold posted last week wondering where all the PvP was. When he sees Open RvR, he sees raid leaders avoiding open confrontation. and I wanted to pick up on that (this is not to do with the PvE PQs that you run when you sack the opposite city, which isn’t PvP at all, which was his other point). Scheduling for off-peak times. Looking to avoid the big battles.

So it’s fair to ask, what is the goal of an RvR raid? Have fun, take objectives and keeps, earn renown/xp for raiders, find some good fights, raiders to feel a sense of accomplishment? Yes, all of those things. But a good fight in RvR is not necessarily a fair one. If you try to take a keep that is defended by the same number of people as are attacking, it won’t necessarily be fun for the attackers if the defenders play well. They’ll be throwing themselves at the chokepoints for a long frustrating session. Keeps are designed to be favour the defenders. Similarly, if one raid surprises an enemy raid at an objective and charges in from behind before they can react, it’s not necessarily fun for the losing side (although they can regroup and come back for payback).

RvR is not the same as PvP. We’ll get good fights along the road, but it’s perfectly legit to try to outnumber an enemy or attack at his weak points. These are possibilities that give the game its massive scope. If you want fair, there are scenarios which guarantee you the same number of players (roughly). And sometimes it genuinely is the better strategy to pull your warband back from what might turn out to be a slow keep assault and send them off to grab more objectives or a less heavily defended keep instead. I don’t think of it as people avoiding PvP, but more as people playing RvR the way it was meant to be played, as a game with a large tactical scope that you play to win over a longer term.

Having said all this, I think Tier 4 will be different. Just hit 29 on my Archmage yesterday so I haven’t seen much of it yet but keeps matter more in Tier 4. Guilds will be more motivated to take and hold them, and when that happens guild pride comes into it. We still won’t go out of our way to pick losing fights but the terms of the game will have changed. Tier 2 and 3 were for fun, Tier 4 is for keeps (sic).

And on another note, has any other raid leader noticed that people really really really love to take the beer related objectives ? Unless I’m very specific with people and watch the map like a hawk, they tend to drift to Bugman’s Brewery and the tavern in High Pass. I get a lot of, “Why aren’t you guys at Passwatch?” “Coming soon, we’re at the pub.” Ah well, plus ca change. Mine’s a pint.

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7 Responses

  1. From my point of view, the goal of an open RvR raid is to take and hold territory. If you run into an enemy force, take them out. If you can’t take them out, then go around them and take battlefield objectives. If you can take a keep, then do so. If you are unable to take a keep, then take something else. Defend objectives or keeps when you are able to do so. In the end, it’s all about what (virtual) real estate you can control.

  2. I’m pretty sure that Tier 3 keeps also contribute somehow to city sieges.

  3. The campaign in the lower tiers bleed over into the higher tiers. Meaning that starting at a dead even T4 situation, if Destro takes all of T3, they pull ahead in T4. This doesn’t mean that you have to have T3 to take T4 and it doesn’t mean you can’t take T4 when you don’t have T3. What it does mean is that they matter, but probably not significantly.

  4. Could you elaborate on this Order channel that you’re talking about? How does it work exactly? How did you get everyone to start using it? I must admit I am pretty clueless when it comes to the chat channels in this game.

    The new /1 channel in the update should help some, but it would be nice to be able to recruit people who are playing on alts or who are trying to level in the next tier, who would want to help in the siege.

  5. Not sure how the word spread except via guildmates who heard about it, but on our server there’s a created ‘Order’ channel. I guess it really has just spread through word of mouth!

  6. My point was not that taking an empty keep or city can’t be fun. My point was that it isn’t player vs. player when there are no enemy players involved. It is just a different form of PvE.

  7. Up to a few nights ago I would have agreed with Tobold there.

    For some time now I have been finding groups to take keeps with and each one has been more akin to a PvE raid than oRvR.. Minimal resistance, 10 min door bash then zerg inside and cap the keep lord..

    A few nights back I joined a warband and we took the two dwarf/greenskin keeps in T3 with little resistance.. nothing more than a PvE raid.

    We then moved over to the Elf T3 area to take those keeps… what a difference!

    We took the southern keep then ran into minor resistance on the North keep. Before long, minor resistance was about 40/50 people pushing us back to our warcamp.

    More groups joined us and we ended up locked in a 90 minute standoff pushing each other back and forth. Must have been easily 40/50 people on both sides.

    When we sent a couple of Ironbreakers round the long way to hit the stragglers at the destro rear, their tanks broke line to defend and we pushed through and chased them back to the keep.

    For me, that night summed up the reasons I enjoy keep taking really. While it can be a standard PvE zerg there is the chance it will turn into an epic RvR standoff at some point.

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